I didn’t even know there was a Patreon app. I signed up through the website. On a computer. Old school.
Technofeudalism.
So, all business is becoming a protection racket?
Gotta love walled gardens! /s
To follow this logic: if you use an e-banking app, Apple will soon claim to be entitled to 30% of all transactions. Same for paypal, ebay, you name it
Well call it tithe for your digital overlord.
God only asks for 10%… shows you what Apple thinks of themselves.
Apple charges 30% when you sell digital goods within an app. That’s not the same as moving money in your bank account or buying something on eBay.
It’s still robbery, but it’s not the same.
When people subscribe, they typically get something digital in return on Patreon.
So 30% tax on buying digital goods on ebay?
Does eBay sell digital goods?
I’d kinda expect the answer to be yes if so if you use the ebay app? If not, I’m actually surprised.
I’m not sure but I’m wondering if a key counts?
Like a digital game key? I’d say yes.
If it’s not a big part of eBay though, I can see that maybe sneaking past as Apple might consider the app as selling physical goods and overlook a small portion of digital?
To make this clear: Patreon is a platform mainly used by creators, artists, musicians to get a reliable income directly from their fans. Apple is trying to steal 30% of the income of our favorite artists.
Good thing none of us have iPhones here, right, guys? Right?
Honestly I wouldn’t touch Apple products with a bargepole. I dislike closed ecosystems
Its not closed
The door is just very very tiny
I always end up with MacBooks after startups and love to have something I can just pick up and use whereas my PC is my command center. Most of my shit is web or local web services so just need a Mozilla terminal. Also, I can’t fathom buying one out of pocket. I’ve also never had an iPhone, it doesn’t make sense to my brain.
So…if you’re just using web stuff, you could probably save a heap by using a Chromebook. That’s what my wife’s personal laptop is and is perfect for web stuff (and has the option of Android apps too, like Mozilla). It’s not her only computer though.
You’d rather be spied on constantly by the largest panopticon ever created, because they allow sideloading.
Honestly this is voting for Trump over Kamala; we need a viable alternative. Why have they taken personal computing from us?
You can deGoogle Android if you want, hopefully better alternatives, that don’t suck, like Linux Phone™ 🙏 arrive before too long.
Except all the posts I see about degoogling start with purchasing Google hardware.
like what? I dumped my google hardware in the process
other options besides graphene exist, like lineage OS that work on a ton of different phones. and sure graphene requires google hardware but nobody says you have to buy the hardware from google direct. buying used is different than buying from google
It’s also an option many people would be fine with. I’m okay with Google having my money. Paying companies for products is perfectly fine. I just don’t want them to have my data and invade my privacy
No, I’d rather use my device like I want to use my device instead of how I’m told to use it. I don’t need to sideload on this device but glad I can if and when I want to. I prefer having a computer with me rather than a purposely stunted device kept that way to sell other devices in the ecosystem.
You say it’s purposely stunted, I say it has guardrails that saves me hours and hours of family IT support time un-fucking my elderly parents phones. This was something I’d have to do every single time I was home when we had android phones.
I would dump Apple in a heartbeat if something better existed. They’re not good but they’re the best for my personal scenario of the current options.
You really shouldn’t be so downvoted for sharing your experience. While not ideal it’s valid and understandable.
It happens if you express any positive sentiment towards Apple. I don’t give a shit, downvotes matter not.
I don’t need my phone to be a completely open computer, I have a computer and a server for that. I need a communications appliance, and since I’m the family IT guy, I need the lowest bullshit device my boomer parents can operate. My parents are not going to run some high privacy custom ROM because I’m not going to troubleshoot their problems. I realize that those ROMs are objectively better if you’re only considering the phone, but I basically have to manage a fleet of devices, and it’s easier troubleshooting if I’m also using the same. I don’t love Apple, it’s just easier.
Were being spied on regardless, better to choose the option that allows one to do the most with it. If I could throw together my own phone and run a Linux variant on then I fucken would, but as it phone hardware is ass and Linux mobile doesn’t exist for my phone.
You can’t logic people out of an emotional decision. The hatred of Apple runs deep.
The obviousness of this is how Android users troll Apple discussions but Apple users don’t troll Android discussions.
They have insanely strong opinions on what other’s choices that it borderline religious.
The terminally online Apple cultists bully other people all the time. I mean you’re literally doing it right now while also blatantly lying about it.
Android has orders of magnitude more users than apple and the vast majority couldn’t care less what phone someone uses.
This is a discussion about apple not android.
Pointing out a behavior trend isn’t bullying.
So you’d rather be spies on by the formerly largest panopticon ever created AND not be able to side load?
If you think Apple is some paragon of privacy you might want to do some research on that lol.
I don’t rofl
Been locked in this ecosystem for a while guys. I’m not proud of it.
It’s better than the alternatives, unfortunately. I really want to dump Apple; the products are waning in quality and the company is spending a lot of time genuflecting for king tangerine. But it just works.
“Just install grapheneOS” my brother in Christ, I have no time or interest in fucking up with the primary communication device I rely on to reach family, friends, and work. I don’t have time for the hobbies I want to do let alone adding work-adjacent activities under the cloak of a hobby.
Installing graphene was not like flashing a ROM ten years ago. You just follow the simple steps on the web installer.
When for xiaomi…jpg
I’d love to jump ship.
The ecosystem is really seamless, especially with a MacBook and Apple watch in the mix.
Though I don’t think there is any winning in the smartphone space. There is a duopoly and even if you personally use graphineOS you still are benefitting and helping the Google ecosystem by using Android apps.
Sadly I don’t think we can “vote with our wallets” on smartphones. We need legal legislation that forces both Apple and Google to be consumer friendly.
Agreed. And someone on this side of the Atlantic with the teeth to bite Apple’s face off when they pull shit like they did with right to repair or not allowing progressive web apps.
“You need to let end users be able to repair your devices.”
“Okay we will sell a $700 repair ‘kit’ and each replacement part is $1000 and also they’re hardware locked to the original device so you can’t reuse older devices for parts. BTW you need our certification.”
Nothing would prevent you from communicating with a Graphene OS phone. It’s a smartphone OS, not compiling Arch here…
But use whatever excuse you can find to stay in the Apple ecosystem, that’s fine.
I’m already there & I don’t have money to switch. THATS A PRETTY GOOD FUCKING REASON.
Perhaps the parent commenter has apps they need to run for work? I know Microsoft Authenticator isn’t supported on Graphene, which is admittedly bullshit but it’s a requirement if you work in the government or high security industry like utilities. If that’s the case they should be given a work phone, but companies don’t do that most of the time in my experience.
Or perhaps they’ve had a bad experience with an older version. I know that Ubuntu Mobile couldn’t even make calls on a lot of devices for a while. I recently had an experience where DTMF signaling didn’t work, which meant I couldn’t navigate phone trees to do things like get prescriptions filled.
Point being, there are lots of real reasons folks are stuck in their predicament.
The temptation to be snarky is strong, but we risk hurting imperfect allies instead of fighting our real enemies.
It totally could and probably would. I am a phone OS tinkerer myself, but the above poster is right that it is a lot of hobbyist type tinkering and you can brick your device and fuck it up so you can’t communicate with your friends and family.
I agree with the main sentiment that these alternative OSs for phones and computers are a lot better in a lot of ways, but we are unwise to act like getting your computer or phone that way is that easy. Trying to get an alternative OS working well on a device can very easily consume an entire waking day or more, and bricking is not impossible, especially with phones.
Just buy a Fairphone from Murena with /e/OS preinstalled. You don’t have to do anything yourself. It mainly works like a phone without any issues, all the features I need work on it and I didn’t have to install it manually and supported the devs
Never too late to switch to GrapheneOS.
I can’t unlock my bootloader so i’m fucked.
I am in it for not too long, I wanted a Framework notebook but they didn’t sell in my country so I couldn’t purchase it through my business so I went with macbook and iphone next to because, why not.
I generally don’t care much about things like in the op news tbh, as if I have a subscription for something I use it directly from the website
And stuff like the seemless integration when switching from my phone to my MacBook with my airpods is fucking great.
but I am not a normal techie, I am waaay overindexed on user experience over a lot of things, for example I pay for spotify because the Ux is great for me, I refuse to pay for streaming devices because my own plex/jellyfin server is a much better UX.
I am also refusing to buy cars without physical buttons.
But I like my blue iMessages!
Definetly not, wayyyy to closed.
Yeah, hopefully Patron doesn’t roll over and just removes the option to do it in iPhone. Taking away functionality will make Apple look bad, which they deserve.
They already caved.
On Wednesday, Patreon said Apple has renewed its requirement that all Patreon creators must move to subscription billing. The deadline to do so is November 1, 2026.
It’s silly that they don’t just operate from the browser. It’s how I use Patreon on my (admittedly not iPhone) Phone.
They should have just pulled Patreon from the app store.
It’s not like it’s such an impediment to ask users to use their browser.
In an ideal world we would not have monopolies controlling app stores, but I think Patreon is really stupid for not just abandoning the app store.
I really think this move blows and I wish they would reverse this decision and make an exception.
However Tim Cook didn’t wake up one day and wonder how he could fuck creators. Apple takes a 30% cut of all app transactions. This is how they benefit from the enormous and highly successful app platform and ecosystem they created. It’s not pure evil to say “hey use this platform all you want but you must share some of what you make there with us.”
It does suck that they won’t let creators off the hook though. This is like taxing rips.
The platform is enormous and highly successful solely because it is a monopoly in the Apple ecosystem
I guarantee you if other app stores were allowed on Apple devices, they would take significant market share with a far smaller cut of revenue
We can safely assume that alternative app stores would have less effect on iOS than they have on Android, where Google desperately wants others to step in and develop their ecosystem. And they aren’t very significant on Android at all. I tried distributing my app on Samsung Galaxy in addition to GPlay and despite its preferential positioning with the world’s largest phone maker, I got peanuts for installs. Not even a rounding error. I literally took the app down. Oh and then Xiaomi got banned from the SDK and they stole my APK for their third party app store and began sending me bug reports about how it was “broken” there. Ah yes the power and glory of alternative app stores… Apple are wise not to dump this cesspit into their ecosystem, which people love because all they want is one decent, unified default that works well.
@Sine_Fine_Belli 😡 Tim Cook is a bad man. Do not federate with him!
Yes! Exploit the morons as much as they’re willing to be exploited!
None of them have the brains/balls to fight back.
Gotta recoup all those fascist donations
Timmy Cook is just a bean counter. He’s got nothing to innovate or build. That’s Apple has been buying back shares non stop. Their lead designer jumped ship a while ago. It’s only a matter of time.
They still have wicked hardware, nobody is near their M5 performance/watt though
Good perf per watt, but super expensive, walled garden, internally spying and nearly unrepairable.
There are a few EU alternatives. Why are those not being considered.
LiberaPay is one.
Why does Apple feel they deserve a 30% cut? In cases like this, Apple aren’t providing any value at all.
- Apple aren’t providing the content - the creator is.
- Apple aren’t providing a platform for the content - Patreon is.
- Apple aren’t providing a platform for discovery - people aren’t finding Patreon creators solely via Apple products.
Sure, Apple are providing a payments platform, but why do they deserve 10x what Stripe charges?
It’s just platform-milking, just like Meetup.com’s latest antics; there isn’t deep analysis needed to everything, haha. “Capitalism” is totally a legitimate answer despite being just one word.
Meetup is now owned by Bending Spoons, who have also enshittified wetransfer, Evernote, eventbrite, AOL, vimeo. They buy decent products that never exploded to ipo status, fire everyone and milk the rest for whatever they can charge.
Ironic that they named themselves on a plot about breaking out of a cycle of control, classic Palantir or Anduril vibes too of like “haha movies good where stonks”
Why does one company need to own meetup and eventbrite?
Is that not a monopoly? How does it not violate any anti-trust laws?
Edit to add: how long before we see a fediverse events app?
There is one, Mobilizon
Thank you!
You got a link to what meetup has been up to?
I, too, am interested in hearing about these supposed shenanigans.
I dunno, I left a couple years ago after they stopped providing .ics, started spamming our members that we were paying for, and then refused to provide us with the emails of our members.
Just join a group, and you’ll see. It’s so goddamn scummy and nickel/diming.
They were sued by Epic Games for the same shit and Epic won on one count which allows them to put links to alternative payment methods and go around Apple.
So couldn’t patreon just argue in court that this precedent was already set with epic?
That is how case law works, yes.
I’m just wondering then why Apple would even push this if a president was already set with Epic. What a bunch of greedy corporate bastards.
Expecting Patreon to not want to bother fighting them over it, and they are correct in that assumption.
On Wednesday, Patreon said Apple has renewed its requirement that all Patreon creators must move to subscription billing. The deadline to do so is November 1, 2026.
Edit, adding my source: https://www.engadget.com/big-tech/patreon-creators-have-to-switch-to-subscription-billing-by-november-thanks-to-apple-203759852.html
I’m not a lawyer but I think they could.
Lack of competition. No other app store is allowed to operate on Apple devices. They have a monopoly, which is the only reason they can charge as much as they do
Sure, Apple are providing a payments platform, but why do they deserve 10x what Stripe charges?
I don’t believe that 30% cut includes payment processing. That’s an additional fee
Sad to think about how little creators actually get at the end of the day. Example of a $100 donation/subscription:
-
Apple takes 30%
-
Card companies take ~4%
-
Patreon takes 10%
-
Taxes take another big chunk
After all that a the creator would have, what, $40?
No other app store is allowed to operate on Apple devices
That’s only true outside of Europe. In the EU, they were forced to allow third-party app stores. The US government doesn’t have the guts to do that, since they focus more on the needs/wants of companies, whereas the EU is really focused on consumer rights.
- Card companies take ~4%
- Patreon takes 10%
Does Patreon’s cut not include payment processing?
The other thing that’s ridiculous in the USA is how much credit card processing costs. Stripe is around 3%, while in countries it can be half of that (in Australia, it’s commonly around 1% for debit cards and 1.5% for credit cards).
-
They provide the payment system. They also mandate it.
If you subscribe on the website you don’t have to pay the extra. It’s only for subscriptions initiated via the app
An app you can only get via the Apple store, mandated by Apple?
You can make the subscription through the website on the phone just as well and not pay the cut to apple.
Most likely the app exists just because people don’t know how to type patreon.com into the browser anymore
Full functionality is available on the web AFAIK. And if you subscribe on the web, there’s no Apple cut, but you can still use the app to see said content.
It’s an inconvenience, but a super easy one to get past and not exclusive to Patreon so a trick any Apple users should know anyway if they enjoy paying subscriptions for things (Netflix, Spotify, whatever)
I too assume the Patreon App doesn’t do anything that cannot be done on their web page. I can imagine there are good dev reasons but also bad incentives to make it an app.
I am biased against Apple as I like being the one in control of my hardware/software… but is it a stretch to say Apple influence their users to use apps instead of web pages (so they can rent-seek a cut)?
Your opinion of Apple is generally valid, but as an Apple user for the last few years, I’ve never actually seen Apple push me to install an app. It’s always the website itself saying “it’s even better in the app!” or something.
Yeah. But why would you use the app? I personally didn’t know there even was an app.
Maybe it offers something better than on whatever web browser Apple mandates, or maybe no reason but user preference.
PWAs aren’t great on iPhone… They intentionally limit some functionality to push people towards the App Store.
Some people want everything as apps for some reason.
There’s no way that the Patreon app isn’t more than a dolled up web view. If people make stupid decisions I guess the fallout is on them.
Sadly the fallout is usually on everyone - eventually companies will copy a shady practice as it’s been shown they can get away with it until no other option exists. It falls on the technologically literate to call out when others are being mistreated or they can suffer too.
No, the fallout is on creators.
I have the Android app, but I can download podcast episodes on WiFi to save on mobile data. That’s as good a reason as any to use the app.
You could also use any other podcast app.
deleted by creator
This is THE way that Apple gets any revenue from the enormous and highly successful app platform and ecosystem they created. They say “go nuts, make money on our platform, but share some with us in exchange for our maintaining that platform.” This is reasonable. Apple is providing a service to Patreon, and access to their tremendous user base. That ain’t nothing.
I agree that subjecting creator donations to the 30% is about the shittiest use case for this and I wish they would make an exception. But your post about how Apple is doing absolutely nothing here is garbage.
It’s one way but not the only way. They make money from developers before they even write a single line of code, every year.
Apple is doing nothing in this particular case, not in general. There’s cases where the 30% is more justified.
Oh is there some case where Apple is creating the content inside the app??? Do tell.
I meant more if people wouldn’t have found your app without Apple’s App Store. In that case, they’re essentially handling marketing for you.
Being in the AppStore gives you access to a lot of people. I don’t feel it’s at all relevant whether you happen to also have other exposure elsewhere. Apple charges you for the exposure you get from them, period. If you don’t want to pay for it, because you’re so successful on other channels, just don’t. Don’t have an iOS app. But for years we’ve had people who want an iOS app but also want to complain about sharing what they make from it. They still make too much to be willing to pull their app, but they complain anyway: because who doesn’t want higher margins.
Deserving is irrelevant under Capitalism. It’s only whether they can get away with it or not?
And fixing this problem is going to require a similar attitude from the people tired of this.
We need to rep our interests as ruthlessly and as sophisticatedly as our enemies.
We have a winner
Why does Apple feel they deserve a 30% cut?
Because they can. Time and time again, useful idiots have proven their dipshittery by sucking off the people taking them for a ride.
A main tenant of business decisions is to fuck over your customers as hard as they’re willing to be fucked. Since nobody has any standards these days, corporations make a killing.
Because apple is a “premium” product, so you have to pay a “premium” fee for normal stuff so it feels like you’re using “premium” services
But you’re getting literally the same Patreon content.
But you’re paying more, so it’s “premium” content, clearly.
gotta get the money to bribe trump somehow
Just pass on the cost of the corruption to the consumer, as usual. It’s the Corruption Tax.
Where else would it come from? 🤷♂️
This sums the problem up fairly nicely I think. I do wonder with Apple being a gatekeeper by EUs own definition and unfair sales terms supposed to be history with the Digital Markets Act in place this can’t go through, right!!! at least not in the EU… assuming they do their job.
Apple also gets money from developers who use their platform already. That should be it.
Apple will already bully small developers off their platform while giving bigger companies first-class treatment.
It’s not about what they deserve, it’s about what they want.
I suspect this has more to do with closing a loophole than going after Patreon and only Patreon.
People don’t have to subscribe through the app. and Patreon don’t have to offer that functionality in the App. Apple don’t have Patreon locked in to their platform.
Because greed.
kinda like how youtube takes massive cut of ad revenue, which is why they switch to patreon, brand deal and promotions. 30% is pretty steep for small content creators, that isnt peddling right wing grifting.
What exactly does Apple think that they’re brining to the equation in order to deserve that 30? Is it simply that they’re hosting an app on their store, so therefore they’re entitled to a cut?
So if I write a novel, and get it published, Microsoft can say "We deserve 30% because you used our product to produce your product?
I’m so fucking tired of corporations. It’s well past guillotine-o-clock.
What exactly does Apple think that they’re brining to the equation in order to deserve that 30?
Because Valve can and Tim wants his yachts. No one is gonna stop em either. The App Store and Steam are the same thing: Store fronts that sell other peoples goods. You may say that Steam is just an app—don’t tell me, tell your representatives
Which device only allows you to run software downloaded from Steam?
You may say that Steam is just an app—don’t tell me, tell your representatives
Tell your representatives, not me. According to our representatives, what Apple has is not a monopoly. You don’t have to convince me, you have to convince them. If you truly care about this issue, vote accordingly.
I don’t understand why you think it’s ok to knowingly present a false equivalency then. You clearly know it’s not true, so why repeat the lie?
Because thats how they’re getting away with it? Who cares if it’s true or not, no one who can do anything about it cares. Tell your reps to start caring about monopolies.
Steam at least adda value for devs. What the fuck does apple do for Patreon creators?
Why are you booing them, they’re right.
There is a vocal subset of people on the Fediverse who truly believe that Steam, Valve, and Gabe can no do wrong. Completely, forgetting that Valve and Gabe are both worth billions of dollars. That Steam fits the legal defintion of a monopoly because Steam controls such a massive part of the market.
I was talking to the people downvoting, the comment was in the negative at the time I typed mine
It’s a little different though. Valve is providing the actual platform, and running it. Apple doesn’t own Patreon, they simply host a client.
It sure is different, but the people in charge dont know or care to know
They’re bringing the apple tax to the table
It’s a holdover from retail where had to physically hold your product and had limited space.
Now, the shareholders demand even more money and Apple has complete control on the OS and they are signaling that you can’t do shit and they will take whatever they want.
They can fight anyone in courts, and as long as the laws have no teeth, they will get away with it.
What exactly does Apple think that they’re brining to the equation in order to deserve that 30?
Apple users are some of the dumbest people on the planet. Most of them will gleefully support paying more to make the company richer.
Choose another payment method. Choose another platform - web based? - where these fees don’t apply. Hell, buy a throwaway droid phone to keep your money from apple’s greedy hands.
Google imposes the same restriction, if you buy a digital service (such as a Patreon subscription) you need to pay the Google tax.
I don’t know if Patreon got an exemption from Google, but any smaller developer doesn’t for sure.
YT influencers fled to patreon because of google doing the same thing.
More people will be forced to use other platforms like subscribe star and pixiv fanbox
I hope Patreon will just switch off the ability to pay through the iOS app, along with a nice fuck you-message to Apple that pops up when you first open the app
Last time this came up Patreon simply allowed the creators to charge the commission directly on top of the price for non apple users, or eat the 30% loss. So everyone not using iOS would pay, say, $5/month, iOS users would pay $5+30%. Hope they retain that option.
That’s actually a good solution
Is it? Previously this was considered tips
Now it’s 30% for what? Running a payment gateway and hiding an unsubscribe button deep in the App Store UI.
Competitively payment gateways charge 1-3%, but when you lock down a platform you can charge 10x that.
It’s logical but it probably scares away some customers. That’s why the “just eat it” option exists. iOS gives you access to an enormous market and payments are slick and easy. Creators may want $5 but if they can get 30% less from 500% more people, it’s still a good business for them. There’s no strict reason why they must obsess over taking 100% of the sticker price. There are a million examples of businesses who are willing to accept a discount for high volume business.
Not that good, the backlash was immense and if I remember right, people were dropping patreon subs over it.
EDIT: I might also not be remembering right. The thing I’m thinking of was an additional fee regardless of what platform you used to access Patreon.
Yeah, I remember cause my Patreon account asked me what I wanted to do about apple trying to steal my money
p.s. I never push Patreon so have no subs lol
Ya a few apps already do this. YouTube premium does for sure and I have heard a few others doing so.
Your math is wrong. If you want the creator to still get $5 with apple stealing 30% you would need to pay ~43% extra.
$5/0.7 = $7.14
1/0.7 = 1.42857
I don’t remember the math, there was a button to charge apple users more so we got what we were supposed to
That would be nice, but when Apple says “jump,” all the other businesses ask “how high?”
The world is full of morons with more money than sense.
It’s against App Store rules to inform your customers they’re being fucked by Apple in any way. If you do, they’ll take it down.
Isn’t it against the law in many places to charge customers without providing a breakdown of what they’re being charged with?
Not that I’m aware of.
Ok…and?
And…they probably don’t want their app delisted?
It reminds me of gas stations that only accept ATM cards and not credit cards, because they don’t want to lose the 3% that credit card companies take per transaction. They’re trying not to lose that 3%, but it will inconvenience some customers and lose them some business. That could easily be worse than 3%.
So yes Patreon could say “go find a laptop and enter your credit card number in our web page” but there are people who won’t do all that because they expect to be able to pay with one tap. And businesses are on the AppStore because that great payment experience makes it super easy for them to convert customers.
It’s just not as straightforward as saying “fuck you Apple, I’ll take my business elsewhere.”
I was actually curious how this currently works as I’ve never used the Patreon app, so thanks for that. I’m sure it’s a nice convenience to be able to transact through the app, but not 30% passive Apple income levels of nice. It’s too bad they are stuck in their flat-rate commission model, because alienating third-party developers and businesses in this manner will kill their ecosystem.
Can any current creators on Patreon provide some insight into how the revenue streams break down between the iOS/Android app platforms versus the website? What impact do you foresee if instead of a payment option in the app it simply directs you to the website?
