I have used Arch for >13 years (btw) and use the terminal every single session. I also work with Linux servers daily, so I tried the other families with DEs (Debian/Ubuntu, RHEL/CentOS/AlmaLinux/Fedora).
I’m comfortable (and prefer) doing everything with CLI tools. For me, it’s a bit difficult to convert my Windows friends, as they all see me as some kind of hackerman.
What’s the landscape like nowadays, in terms of terminal requirements?
Bonus question: Which distribution is the most user-friendly while still updated packages? Does anything provide a similar experience to Arch’s amazing AUR?
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I use Fedora Workstation. I do use the terminal, each morning I install my updates by typing “sudo dnf upgrade” and enter the password. When that is done I type “syncthing” to start that service. The rest of the day I don’t touch the terminal.
I could install the updates through the “software store” but terminal is faster and no reboot is required, afaik.
Once in a while I do update an app which is almost as easy. Download the rpm file (typically there is a link in the app that needs updating) open terminal, cd Downloads, ls, sudo dnf install “package name”, password, exit.
For context, I started on Linux last April. Previous “laptop” was an android tablet with a physical keyboard and mouse. I did buy a used Thinkpad and install Fedora myself which was very easy.
My 75 year old father, who isn’t a techie, can handle this. Your Window buds should be able to as well.
I know at least two people who have been using Ubuntu as a daily driver for years and have never (as in, ever) touched the terminal.
My gf and I are on Kubuntu. The only CLI she needs is to start her G13 kb, otherwise she is GUI only, even when I set up her machine it was all through GUI. Myself, I do CLI stuff cause it is often easier for me, lsblk/lsusb/mount broken ntfs drives(Ok this one I need after the occasional reboot til I get a new media drive), but I don’t NEED to use it except for my G13 kb and the broken ntfs drive for now. ymmv.
Nope. Every Linux distribution I’ve used has needed access to command line at some point. If anything goes awry people will always give you steps how to fix it from command line.
Now I’m not saying all this couldn’t be done graphically, but you very rarely find steps that way.
I’m torn on this discussion. Full disclosure, I don’t really understand GUIs and get confused with icons and such. I’m a command-line person and have been for decades. I’ll use image editors and IDEs and so on but they often leave me frustrated.
That said, I totally get that other people are not the same, and that’s completely valid. If a regular task can only be done from the command line then there’s an opportunity to fill in the missing piece, the GUI. It’s not a waste of time, even if the GUI is “less efficient” - it’s what a lot of people find comfortable.
Where I fall on the other side is the rise of ChatGPT and its friends. People are overwhelmingly positive about typing their problems into a text box, but when the response is “paste this into a terminal window and press enter” they bail out. They’re happier to go through a dozen screenshots showing them where to click through menus to get to the option visually, even if they have to try multiple times because the GUI changes with the direction of the wind and the terminal stays consistent.
Yes. I agree these chatbots are another text interface like a CLI. So to me that’s again a barrier to usability when I wish to refer to graphical or linked logical items on my screen that don’t have any text description. I don’t work in a purely text world, where usually there are no CLI commands for what im doing.
Its likely these people find a chat bot easier as they don’t need to memorise a command plus modifiers exactly letter perfect. Where one mistype can fail, or worse. Two big issues people have with a CLI. And the chatbot output is made readable too. Where on a CLI it’s hard to know if something worked, not being familiar with the terminology it spits out.
I kind of ‘force-moved’ my wife to Fedora about 2 years ago, and she had never seen the terminal until last week. I saw she was about to open ‘discover’ to update everything, and I stopped her, opened the terminal and ran a dnf update, one ‘put your password in there’, and she was looking at it as if it was magic. Can you use it without the terminal entirely? Pretty sure you can. Now, should you?
Yes, there are several distros that come with many things prepackaged. See Fedora, CachyOS, and Mint for examples.
I think Fedora is an excellent choice. It has up to date packages and its integration with KDE Plasma is pretty good.
Just lie and say they will never need to touch the terminal, then help them out when they need to and eventually they will see its not a big deal
Less needed than on Windows.
Not a chance. Someone else can easily, but I wouldn’t be able to resist.
The allergy to CLI is always strange to me. Computers didn’t always have mice, or GUIs, and people had to learn them when they came around. It’s like saying “I want to ride a bike but I don’t want to learn how.” After a certain point, I don’t really know what to say to something like that. You have to learn how to do anything that is new to you. That doesn’t make it bad, or even necessarily difficult…but anything you don’t know will be unfamiliar, and one just has to be OK with that for a while until it’s not anymore. I think the usability of most mainstream distros is right where it should be. GNOME and KDE have done a very good job of it (edit: barring some very important accessibility concerns, which the GNOME and KDE teams have both shown to be open to learning from and improving on).
The allergy to CLI is always strange to me.
I get it. Every single other application a GUI user has used in their life: Ctrl-C = copy, and Ctrl-Z = undo. Open the terminal, and now Ctrl-C is an interupt, and Ctrl-Z is like a pause. Every terminal emulator has the option to change these keymappings. But doing that has a bunch of consequences once you start running more than basic file operations and nano. I think this is usually the first big hurdle to get over. It’s muscle memory that needs to be suppressed.
And then there’s the documentation aspect. With a GUI, you can visually look around to see what can be done in a program. With the CLI, there’s options that you just kinda have to know. There’s -h or --help, then there’s the man pages. But even just navigating the man pages brings up the previous problem of unfamiliar/unintuitive keybindings. so you could also install tldr for faster help, but the vast majority of the time, it’ll be faster to just search online.
All that being said, I prefer the CLI for pretty much everything, and think it would be interesting if there was a sort of pedagogical distro to teach the command line. Imagine a file browser that displays the underlying utilities/commands being used. Like, when you open your home folder maybe there’s a line showing ‘ls -al /home/me | grep [whatever params to get the info being displayed]’. Or, when you go into the settings, it shows you the specific text files being edited for each option. Something that just exposes the inner workings a little more so that people can learn what they’re actually doing as they’re using the GUI
Different user types have different capabilities. Some think in terms of text. Others are more visual. Neither is wrong. Just like a left handed person is not wrong. Good usability is about adapting the software to the person. Not the person to the software. For a lot of what I do there is no text command. And for many, the CLI is an unfamiliar interface. So it’s a productivity disadvantage to switch over to a CLI just for a single command when the rest of the time you are in a GUI.
I installed ubuntu for my father in 2010. He has no idea how PCs work, and he’s been fine with it. And we are not even close.
Yes it is possible. I never need the terminal. If you are interested, you can usually find a GUI way if you look for one. Some people just don’t look, then tell people there is no GUI for it. Not very helpful for newbies.
For those not into usability, different people work in different ways. Visual workers are not the same as text workers. So for some, CLI has poor usability and productivity. For lots of things I do, there isn’t a CLI anyway.
I use Kubuntu these days. It could be better.
Yes.
