It’s absolutely not right. I am not good at soulslikes, so the games are harder for me. If you have fun with it, that’s because the game is easier for you
Well, “soulslike” is a pretty garbage category, honestly. I have played a lot of games that call themselvea soulslikes, and I pretty much only trust Miyazaki with that genre.
Miyazaki’s quote is wrong for what the gaming industry labels ‘soulslikes’, but not necessarily the games he has designed and created. Because a lot of soulslikes don’t do what Miyazaki tries to do.
And I get what you mean about the game being easier as relative. But there’s also the fact that people do challenge runs in all kinds of games. It’s that drive to be challenged and do something harder, so it is not easier, is at the root of what draws people.
No, it’s still wrong for the games that he has designed and created. Let me attempt an analogy.
If you give Sean Evans or Chris Schonberger a spoonful of sriracha, it will not be spicy to them. The same spoonful of sriracha would be overwhelmingly spicy if you gave it to someone who doesn’t use hot sauce. Same capsaicin content, wildly different experiences.
You need to add difficulty options if you want everyone to have a similar experience. Otherwise, you’re just making the game harder for some people for no reason.
Some people enjoy a more challenging experience. Give them options to make it a more challenging experience. Nobody is asking anyone to take options away from players who like the games to be excessively difficult.
So with the Hot Ones analogy. The show is about interviewing guest tackling the challenge of hot sauces.
People tap out, and that’s a part of the show. There’s challenges within the show as well: (no milk, etc.)
If guests just ate the first wing 10 times, or it was just Sean Evans eating the wings and asking questions it’d just be a different show. (And there are shows where the guests just eat nornsl chicken wings, which is fine. They just sren’t Hot Ones.)
If Sean Evans weren’t eating the wings, however, the premise of the show is still there. Him joining in just helps the guest keep trying.
You can quit, you can not even play at all. If you’re not having fun you shouldn’t feel forced either way. Tap out, drink the milk, eat the ice cream.
At a certain point there’s going to be a “Challenge Mode: The Game” that is not conducive to an Easy Mode.
I wasn’t talking about Hot Ones the show. Those are just the first names that came to mind in terms of people who can handle spicy food.
I’m just going to have to restate the exact same analogy and hope you get it this time. If you feed a spoonful of sriracha to someone who’s used to eating hot sauce in the hundreds of thousands of scovilles, and to someone who irregularly puts a couple drops of Tabasco on their pizza, the two will have wildly different experiences of the same sauce.
Miyazaki’s stated goal was to bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment. In order to do that, the experience must be tailored to the player’s ability. Giving me access to mild hot sauce does not reduce your access to the extra spicy stuff. Letting me reduce the Guardian Ape’s health by half in my save file does not reduce the Guardian Ape’s health in yours. It just ensures that we both have an equivalent experience to each other.
The analogy doesn’t work because your philosophy clashes with someone else’s. My fun is from eating progressively spicier hot sauces to build a tolerance to capsaicin, until I can talk with Sean Evans about our opinions on General Satan’s Colon Evaporator. If you extracted the capsaicin from General Satan’s Colon Evaporator, it is no longer General Satan’s Colon Evaporator, and you can’t actually contribute to the conversation.
“Everybody” that plays in the NBA is literally on the same playing field. “Everybody” at a basketball convention likes basketball. But those are two very different groups of people.
That’s the wonderful thing about options, is that they’re optional. Me having the option to make the game more fun for me does not remove the option to make the game more fun for you.
If your stated goal with a hot sauce eating party is to “bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment,” are you going to feed everyone General Satan’s Colon Evaporator, or do you think that would bring some people to a different level of discussion and enjoyment? Personally I think if someone has a heart attack and dies because they ate the same hot sauce that you had no problem with, then you did a pretty bad job of bringing everyone the same level of enjoyment.
If you extracted the capsaicin from General Satan’s Colon Evaporator, it is no longer General Satan’s Colon Evaporator, and you can’t actually contribute to the conversation.
What an incredible insult to Miyazaki’s writing. If you took some of the health out of Ebrietas, you’d still be playing Bloodborne. If you and I both beat her at the same level of relative difficulty, what’s stopping us from having a conversation? Why am I only able to join the conversation when I have a harder time with her than you do?
You’re kind of missing the point, I think deliberately so, but maybe that’s mean of me.
It’s clear, though, that you don’t respect the element of skill or overcoming adversity as it relates to the non-textual story being told. That the difficulty is a part of Miyazaki’s writing.
If you and I both beat her at the same level of relative difficulty, what’s stopping us from having a conversation?
What is stopping two piano players from having the same conversation?
One could play a very technical, complicated song achieved through years of practice; another could play a lullaby they learned after a month of instruction—should we assume that these two understand the piano in the same way? That they would even enjoy talking to each other about the songs they played, especially if the latter is entirely disinterested in, and even seems somehow insulted by, the achievements of the former?
If two people play the same song at differing skill levels, they will have different experiences, but they’ll still be able to talk about the song, as it is. Their favorite parts to play, the trickiest bits to master.
The Dark Souls conversation really puts me at an impasse because I actually love accessibility settings, but it really bothers me when I see people, probably through a kind of learned helplessness, refuse to engage artistically with the thing that’s been stuck in front of them.
Dark Souls and its ilk are games about “rising to” and by choosing Easy before the game has even begun, you’re kind of failing the very first hurdle. You aren’t learning the piano.
Philosophically, I think you just don’t vibe with what Dark Souls is trying to do. Which is fine. And I would freely admit that an entire industry deciding to follow closely behind Dark Souls’ lead would probably be a worse one.
It might be nice to include less spicy options at a dinner party, but if you were at a hot sauce party, it would seem a little odd to complain about it, no?
Who said anything about a party or feeding anyone sauce? Playing the game is the option. I’m setting a goal for myself to get to that level. I’m getting the sauce for myself. I don’t need you to be part of the conversation.
I’m just going to have to restate the exact same analogy and hope you get it this time.
I am just trying to engage with the context of your points. I used Hot Ones to build on it and offer a counterpoint: the games are about how you tackle the spicy mountain, which by design is the same as everyone else’s spicy mountain.
Giving me access to mild hot sauce does not reduce your access to the extra spicy stuff. Letting me reduce the Guardian Ape’s health by half in my save file does not reduce the Guardian Ape’s health in yours.
All true and fine.
It just ensures that we both have an equivalent experience to each other.
Fundamentally we have not. An ‘extra mild’ The Bomb Beyond Insanity, that is an actual palatable smoke flavor, is just not the equivalent experience as suffering through the real deal.
But, for the record, it’s 100% appropriate to clown on people who suffer those million scoville hot sauces on their food like it is an enjoyable culinary experience. Don’t play the game if you don’t have fun, and no one should suffer the fools who think you should.
Nope, fundamentally we have. I am not conditioned to eat very spicy food. If you are conditioned to eat very spicy food, then more capsaicin is less spicy for you. The nociceptors in your mouth get less overwhelmed, and you experience more of the actual flavor. You are able to taste it in a way that I am physically incapable of.
But hey, I don’t actually eat hot sauce. I’m just assuming that the strong stuff has complex flavors. Is the pain literally the only reason you eat hot sauce? Does it not taste like anything? Because Fromsoft games do have flavor, and I think that whether or not you’re physically capable of handling the spice should not factor in to whether you are allowed to taste them or not
Best I can say is you mentioned people being ‘conditioned’ to eat hot sauce or not. The experience of extreme hot sauces is largely about how each person react to the same sauce. Each experience is different because the conditioning is different for everyone, which is the whole point.
Fromsoft games are the same way. They don’t have any calibration for conditioning because it’s all about how well (or if) you can condition yourself to able to experience it.
It’s absolutely not right. I am not good at soulslikes, so the games are harder for me. If you have fun with it, that’s because the game is easier for you
Well, “soulslike” is a pretty garbage category, honestly. I have played a lot of games that call themselvea soulslikes, and I pretty much only trust Miyazaki with that genre.
Miyazaki’s quote is wrong for what the gaming industry labels ‘soulslikes’, but not necessarily the games he has designed and created. Because a lot of soulslikes don’t do what Miyazaki tries to do.
And I get what you mean about the game being easier as relative. But there’s also the fact that people do challenge runs in all kinds of games. It’s that drive to be challenged and do something harder, so it is not easier, is at the root of what draws people.
No, it’s still wrong for the games that he has designed and created. Let me attempt an analogy.
If you give Sean Evans or Chris Schonberger a spoonful of sriracha, it will not be spicy to them. The same spoonful of sriracha would be overwhelmingly spicy if you gave it to someone who doesn’t use hot sauce. Same capsaicin content, wildly different experiences.
You need to add difficulty options if you want everyone to have a similar experience. Otherwise, you’re just making the game harder for some people for no reason.
Some people enjoy a more challenging experience. Give them options to make it a more challenging experience. Nobody is asking anyone to take options away from players who like the games to be excessively difficult.
So with the Hot Ones analogy. The show is about interviewing guest tackling the challenge of hot sauces.
People tap out, and that’s a part of the show. There’s challenges within the show as well: (no milk, etc.)
If guests just ate the first wing 10 times, or it was just Sean Evans eating the wings and asking questions it’d just be a different show. (And there are shows where the guests just eat nornsl chicken wings, which is fine. They just sren’t Hot Ones.)
If Sean Evans weren’t eating the wings, however, the premise of the show is still there. Him joining in just helps the guest keep trying.
You can quit, you can not even play at all. If you’re not having fun you shouldn’t feel forced either way. Tap out, drink the milk, eat the ice cream.
At a certain point there’s going to be a “Challenge Mode: The Game” that is not conducive to an Easy Mode.
I wasn’t talking about Hot Ones the show. Those are just the first names that came to mind in terms of people who can handle spicy food.
I’m just going to have to restate the exact same analogy and hope you get it this time. If you feed a spoonful of sriracha to someone who’s used to eating hot sauce in the hundreds of thousands of scovilles, and to someone who irregularly puts a couple drops of Tabasco on their pizza, the two will have wildly different experiences of the same sauce.
Miyazaki’s stated goal was to bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment. In order to do that, the experience must be tailored to the player’s ability. Giving me access to mild hot sauce does not reduce your access to the extra spicy stuff. Letting me reduce the Guardian Ape’s health by half in my save file does not reduce the Guardian Ape’s health in yours. It just ensures that we both have an equivalent experience to each other.
The analogy doesn’t work because your philosophy clashes with someone else’s. My fun is from eating progressively spicier hot sauces to build a tolerance to capsaicin, until I can talk with Sean Evans about our opinions on General Satan’s Colon Evaporator. If you extracted the capsaicin from General Satan’s Colon Evaporator, it is no longer General Satan’s Colon Evaporator, and you can’t actually contribute to the conversation.
“Everybody” that plays in the NBA is literally on the same playing field. “Everybody” at a basketball convention likes basketball. But those are two very different groups of people.
That’s the wonderful thing about options, is that they’re optional. Me having the option to make the game more fun for me does not remove the option to make the game more fun for you.
If your stated goal with a hot sauce eating party is to “bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment,” are you going to feed everyone General Satan’s Colon Evaporator, or do you think that would bring some people to a different level of discussion and enjoyment? Personally I think if someone has a heart attack and dies because they ate the same hot sauce that you had no problem with, then you did a pretty bad job of bringing everyone the same level of enjoyment.
What an incredible insult to Miyazaki’s writing. If you took some of the health out of Ebrietas, you’d still be playing Bloodborne. If you and I both beat her at the same level of relative difficulty, what’s stopping us from having a conversation? Why am I only able to join the conversation when I have a harder time with her than you do?
You’re kind of missing the point, I think deliberately so, but maybe that’s mean of me.
It’s clear, though, that you don’t respect the element of skill or overcoming adversity as it relates to the non-textual story being told. That the difficulty is a part of Miyazaki’s writing.
What is stopping two piano players from having the same conversation?
One could play a very technical, complicated song achieved through years of practice; another could play a lullaby they learned after a month of instruction—should we assume that these two understand the piano in the same way? That they would even enjoy talking to each other about the songs they played, especially if the latter is entirely disinterested in, and even seems somehow insulted by, the achievements of the former?
If two people play the same song at differing skill levels, they will have different experiences, but they’ll still be able to talk about the song, as it is. Their favorite parts to play, the trickiest bits to master.
The Dark Souls conversation really puts me at an impasse because I actually love accessibility settings, but it really bothers me when I see people, probably through a kind of learned helplessness, refuse to engage artistically with the thing that’s been stuck in front of them.
Dark Souls and its ilk are games about “rising to” and by choosing Easy before the game has even begun, you’re kind of failing the very first hurdle. You aren’t learning the piano.
Philosophically, I think you just don’t vibe with what Dark Souls is trying to do. Which is fine. And I would freely admit that an entire industry deciding to follow closely behind Dark Souls’ lead would probably be a worse one.
It might be nice to include less spicy options at a dinner party, but if you were at a hot sauce party, it would seem a little odd to complain about it, no?
Who said anything about a party or feeding anyone sauce? Playing the game is the option. I’m setting a goal for myself to get to that level. I’m getting the sauce for myself. I don’t need you to be part of the conversation.
Too bad, I guess? I’m here anyway. If you don’t like reading my comments you can always block me
I am just trying to engage with the context of your points. I used Hot Ones to build on it and offer a counterpoint: the games are about how you tackle the spicy mountain, which by design is the same as everyone else’s spicy mountain.
All true and fine.
Fundamentally we have not. An ‘extra mild’ The Bomb Beyond Insanity, that is an actual palatable smoke flavor, is just not the equivalent experience as suffering through the real deal.
But, for the record, it’s 100% appropriate to clown on people who suffer those million scoville hot sauces on their food like it is an enjoyable culinary experience. Don’t play the game if you don’t have fun, and no one should suffer the fools who think you should.
Nope, fundamentally we have. I am not conditioned to eat very spicy food. If you are conditioned to eat very spicy food, then more capsaicin is less spicy for you. The nociceptors in your mouth get less overwhelmed, and you experience more of the actual flavor. You are able to taste it in a way that I am physically incapable of.
But hey, I don’t actually eat hot sauce. I’m just assuming that the strong stuff has complex flavors. Is the pain literally the only reason you eat hot sauce? Does it not taste like anything? Because Fromsoft games do have flavor, and I think that whether or not you’re physically capable of handling the spice should not factor in to whether you are allowed to taste them or not
Then it was probably a poor analogy to use.
Best I can say is you mentioned people being ‘conditioned’ to eat hot sauce or not. The experience of extreme hot sauces is largely about how each person react to the same sauce. Each experience is different because the conditioning is different for everyone, which is the whole point.
Fromsoft games are the same way. They don’t have any calibration for conditioning because it’s all about how well (or if) you can condition yourself to able to experience it.