Billy aged 6 years just so you could double-down on your ridiculous point.
I guess I should be accurate with numbers… Lord wouldn’t it sound bad if 44 year old was dating a 13 year old.
But why stop at romantic relationships? Every relationship has the potential for manipulation.
And you are saying all relationships have the same impact on your life as a marriage or long term relationship? Or are you just asking incredibly dumb questions?
Speaking from personal experience, many of my non-romantic friendships have had as great or greater impact on my life than did my long-term romantic relationships. I don’t think that’s so uncommon.
But the impact isn’t really the point. The point comes back to agency. Does a 19-year old have agency? You’re effectively saying that they do not, because they’re easily manipulated by experience and material resources. I’m saying that, while that’s possible, it’s also possible that a 19-year old sees someone who is more experienced and has material resources and decides that’s a good enough reason to be in a romantic relationship. I mean, do you think sometime in the last 13 years that Chloe Mendel could have developed sufficient experience and material resources of her own such that she could have decided to leave? Or do you think that even as a 30-something woman she’s still being manipulated?
I don’t know if 18 is the right age to determine that someone is an adult, but I do think that once we draw that line, we can’t selectively decide what’s good and bad for them. I don’t think you can say an 18-year old shouldn’t be allowed to decide who they want to fuck while also saying they can vote and decide which politician gets to fuck us. Like, if you think a 19-year old is so easily manipulated, then they certainly shouldn’t be allowed to vote because they could be manipulated by some 44-year old into voting against their best interest, right? This is the slippery slope to which I was referring.
I understand the POV that people feel like a 19-year old is being taken advantage of. If a 43-year old started dating my 18-year old niece, I would be pretty disappointed. But if they were genuinely happy together, who am I to stand in their way? This is also the analogy to queer relationships: just because it elicits a disgust reaction in someone doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong. I understand your point is different here in that the power imbalance is the potential problem, and it’s an argument that has merit. But it’s also well within the spectrum of possibility that Mendel and Corgan are genuinely happy together, and who are you to tell them that they can’t be?
Speaking from personal experience, many of my non-romantic friendships have had as great or greater impact on my life than did my long-term romantic relationships. I don’t think that’s so uncommon.
You’re talking about emotional impact alone. Someone who lives with you, shares a bank account with you, and owns property with you obviously has more ability to control you and abuse you.
The point comes back to agency. Does a 19-year old have agency? You’re effectively saying that they do not, because they’re easily manipulated by experience and material resources.
Are you trying to claim someone cannot dilute someone else’s agency? that’s the whole problem with a power imbalance in a relationship, that your partner can use their power to isolate you from your agency.
19-year old sees someone who is more experienced and has material resources and decides that’s a good enough reason to be in a romantic relationship.
Again my criticism isn’t about the decisions made by the person who just legally became an adult, it’s on the older person.
I mean, do you think sometime in the last 13 years that Chloe Mendel could have developed sufficient experience and material resources of her own such that she could have decided to leave?
Do you think that people always leave bad relationships when thing become unhealthy?
don’t know if 18 is the right age to determine that someone is an adult, but I do think that once we draw that line, we can’t selectively decide what’s good and bad for them.
When did I say I wanted to do that?
I don’t think you can say an 18-year old shouldn’t be allowed to decide who they want to fuck while also saying they can vote and decide which politician gets to fuck us.
Again… When did I say that? What I said is this guy is gross, immature, and wants to take advantage of young women.
Like, if you think a 19-year old is so easily manipulated, then they certainly shouldn’t be allowed to vote because they could be manipulated by some 44-year old into voting against their best interest, right? This is the slippery slope to which I was referring.
19 years old should vote because the laws are pertinent to their present and future…
I understand the POV that people feel like a 19-year old is being taken advantage of. If a 43-year old started dating my 18-year old niece, I would be pretty disappointed. But if they were genuinely happy together, who am I to stand in their way?
That is a big “if” you are relying on. What if that 43 year old was love bombing them and telling you on the side that they were going to eventually leave them a broken mess? How often do you think these relationships are genuine compared to predatory. How do you tell the difference in the beginning?
This is also the analogy to queer relationships: just because it elicits a disgust reaction in someone doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong.
You can literally validate any abusive relationship with that same thinking because it’s made to exclude context.
“Just because slavery elicits a disgust reaction in someone doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong.”
Mendel and Corgan are genuinely happy together, and who are you to tell them that they can’t be?
When did I say they can’t be happy. What I said is that he is a disgusting and predatory man.
You’re talking about emotional impact alone. Someone who lives with you, shares a bank account with you, and owns property with you obviously has more ability to control you and abuse you.
Granted, but my point isn’t necessarily that the magnitude matters. It’s the fact that judging something as a “romantic” relationships generates these gray lines that make moral discussions like this one so blurry. Many people have relationships that blur the lines between romantic and platonic.
Are you trying to claim someone cannot dilute someone else’s agency? that’s the whole problem with a power imbalance in a relationship, that your partner can use their power to isolate you from your agency.
No, but again, you can’t really draw a clean line around this problem. We all have diluted agency as a result of constantly taking in sense data: we’re products of our environments. I don’t think you can cleanly say that every relationship between a 44-year old man and a 19-year old woman is exploitative in nature. Or if you do believe that, wouldn’t you want to push for that to be codified as law? And if so, how would you codify it?
When did I say I wanted to do that?
Aren’t you implying it? It’s not as if Billy Corgan physically abducted Chloe Mendel. She willingly chose to become his partner. Either she’s wise enough and has enough agency to make decisions for herself, or she’s not. If it’s the latter, then you have to deal with the outcomes of that. I don’t buy that this is exclusively a “romantic relationship” problem. If the point is that 19-year olds are too ignorant to realize that a 44-year old man showing interest in them is “predatory,” surely that problem extends to other components of their agency.
That is a big “if” you are relying on. What if that 43 year old was love bombing them and telling you on the side that they were going to eventually leave them a broken mess? How often do you think these relationships are genuine compared to predatory. How do you tell the difference in the beginning?
Literally the person in this photo. They’ve been together for 13 years, right? I don’t know how you tell the difference in the beginning, but if you tell someone they can’t do it (which, you’re effectively doing by publicly shaming their relationship), then how many people are being deprived of a meaningful relationship. Why are you the arbiter of when someone has agency and when they don’t?
You can literally validate any abusive relationship with that same thinking because it’s made to exclude context.
Dang, I actually thought you were capable of critical thought until this comment. This isn’t about validating my argument, it’s about invalidating the argument that disgust is a reasonable tool for determining morality of an action. That’s one of your points, as evidenced in the next line.
When did I say they can’t be happy. What I said is that he is a disgusting and predatory man.
I guess I don’t understand your point at all then. You’re saying that even though Corgan is “disgusting and predatory,” his actions may well lead to happiness for him and the person he way “praying” on? On what planet does the word “pray” mean to make someone else happy? Oh no, I’m being prayed on by the compliment fairy! Keep it away!
I think you’re so focused on the older person here that you are failing to realize that you’re reducing the younger person to an automaton. The 19-year old is wise enough to make other life-changing choices: voting, taking out bank loans, making major purchases, choosing a career, choosing friends, deciding to take drugs, deciding to have an abortion, etc., but they’re not wise enough to decide whether or not it’s good for them to date someone who is older than them? I don’t think you can have your cake and eat it too.
Granted, but my point isn’t necessarily that the magnitude matters. It’s the fact that judging something as a “romantic” relationships generates these gray lines that make moral discussions like this one so blurry. Many people have relationships that blur the lines between romantic and platonic.
You don’t need everything to be absolute to make a declarative criticism.
No, but again, you can’t really draw a clean line around this problem. We all have diluted agency as a result of constantly taking in sense data: we’re products of our environments. I don’t think you can cleanly say that every relationship between a 44-year old man and a 19-year old woman is exploitative in nature.
Again, you don’t need every relationship in a system of abuse to be abusive to criticize the system of abuse.
There were slaves whose parents were their masters, who in fact loved their masters and were loved by their masters. There were slaves who wanted to return to slavery after the civil war. Does that mean I can’t definitively claim slavery is bad?
Or if you do believe that, wouldn’t you want to push for that to be codified as law? And if so, how would you codify it?
Law does not dictate morality. Lots of things that are immoral are perfectly legal. Legal systems are not perfect.
Either she’s wise enough and has enough agency to make decisions for herself, or she’s not. If it’s the latter, then you have to deal with the outcomes of that.
Yes, and I would say that is a horrible and likely outcome for most people in that situation. And those with the most agency who participate in that relationship should be criticized.
I don’t buy that this is exclusively a “romantic relationship” problem. If the point is that 19-year olds are too ignorant to realize that a 44-year old man showing interest in them is “predatory,” surely that problem extends to other components of their agency.
When did I say it was exclusive to romantic relationships. What I said is that ranit relationship like this were more problematic because the potential for abuse is much greater. That being said, a older more powerful person abusing a younger colleague or friends is also bad and should be criticized.
Literally the person in this photo. They’ve been together for 13 years, right? I don’t know how you tell the difference in the beginning, but if you tell someone they can’t do it (which, you’re effectively doing by publicly shaming their relationship), then how many people are being deprived of a meaningful relationship. Why are you the arbiter of when someone has agency and when they don’t?
Which is why I said how often… Again, you are excusing the majority for the sake of the outliers. Also, we really have no idea what this individual creations is like behind closed doors. Plenty of abusive relationships go on for decades.
Why are you the arbiter of when someone has agency and when they don’t?
Again… When did I say I was? I am just being critical of the guy in their 40s dating a teen.
it’s about invalidating the argument that disgust is a reasonable tool for determining morality of an action. That’s one of your points, as evidenced in the next line.
Lol, the disgust is just one expression of the many criticism I have already laid out. It’s not that I am having my ethical construct dictated to me by social mores. I have articulated my reasoning, you just choose to ignore them.
I guess I don’t understand your point at all then. You’re saying that even though Corgan is “disgusting and predatory,” his actions may well lead to happiness for him and the person he way “praying” on? On what planet does the word “pray” mean to make someone else happy? Oh no, I’m being prayed on by the compliment fairy! Keep it away!
You can have a happy slave, does that mean the slave owner isnt predatory or disgusting? Also it’s prey, not pray.
think you’re so focused on the older person here that you are failing to realize that you’re reducing the younger person to an automaton.
Because the older person has the power in the relationship. Keeping with the slavery comparison. Does a slave have the ability to choose not to be a slave? Yes, they could flee north, a lot of slaves did. However, it’s dangerous, they could fail to get away and be punished severely. Could a slave have a “good” master? Yes, lots of slaves were literal family members of their masters who were loved and loved their owners. Does that mean the concept of slavery is good? Does that mean all slaves had zero agency?
I guess I should be accurate with numbers… Lord wouldn’t it sound bad if 44 year old was dating a 13 year old.
And you are saying all relationships have the same impact on your life as a marriage or long term relationship? Or are you just asking incredibly dumb questions?
Speaking from personal experience, many of my non-romantic friendships have had as great or greater impact on my life than did my long-term romantic relationships. I don’t think that’s so uncommon.
But the impact isn’t really the point. The point comes back to agency. Does a 19-year old have agency? You’re effectively saying that they do not, because they’re easily manipulated by experience and material resources. I’m saying that, while that’s possible, it’s also possible that a 19-year old sees someone who is more experienced and has material resources and decides that’s a good enough reason to be in a romantic relationship. I mean, do you think sometime in the last 13 years that Chloe Mendel could have developed sufficient experience and material resources of her own such that she could have decided to leave? Or do you think that even as a 30-something woman she’s still being manipulated?
I don’t know if 18 is the right age to determine that someone is an adult, but I do think that once we draw that line, we can’t selectively decide what’s good and bad for them. I don’t think you can say an 18-year old shouldn’t be allowed to decide who they want to fuck while also saying they can vote and decide which politician gets to fuck us. Like, if you think a 19-year old is so easily manipulated, then they certainly shouldn’t be allowed to vote because they could be manipulated by some 44-year old into voting against their best interest, right? This is the slippery slope to which I was referring.
I understand the POV that people feel like a 19-year old is being taken advantage of. If a 43-year old started dating my 18-year old niece, I would be pretty disappointed. But if they were genuinely happy together, who am I to stand in their way? This is also the analogy to queer relationships: just because it elicits a disgust reaction in someone doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong. I understand your point is different here in that the power imbalance is the potential problem, and it’s an argument that has merit. But it’s also well within the spectrum of possibility that Mendel and Corgan are genuinely happy together, and who are you to tell them that they can’t be?
You’re talking about emotional impact alone. Someone who lives with you, shares a bank account with you, and owns property with you obviously has more ability to control you and abuse you.
Are you trying to claim someone cannot dilute someone else’s agency? that’s the whole problem with a power imbalance in a relationship, that your partner can use their power to isolate you from your agency.
Again my criticism isn’t about the decisions made by the person who just legally became an adult, it’s on the older person.
Do you think that people always leave bad relationships when thing become unhealthy?
When did I say I wanted to do that?
Again… When did I say that? What I said is this guy is gross, immature, and wants to take advantage of young women.
19 years old should vote because the laws are pertinent to their present and future…
That is a big “if” you are relying on. What if that 43 year old was love bombing them and telling you on the side that they were going to eventually leave them a broken mess? How often do you think these relationships are genuine compared to predatory. How do you tell the difference in the beginning?
You can literally validate any abusive relationship with that same thinking because it’s made to exclude context.
“Just because slavery elicits a disgust reaction in someone doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong.”
When did I say they can’t be happy. What I said is that he is a disgusting and predatory man.
Granted, but my point isn’t necessarily that the magnitude matters. It’s the fact that judging something as a “romantic” relationships generates these gray lines that make moral discussions like this one so blurry. Many people have relationships that blur the lines between romantic and platonic.
No, but again, you can’t really draw a clean line around this problem. We all have diluted agency as a result of constantly taking in sense data: we’re products of our environments. I don’t think you can cleanly say that every relationship between a 44-year old man and a 19-year old woman is exploitative in nature. Or if you do believe that, wouldn’t you want to push for that to be codified as law? And if so, how would you codify it?
Aren’t you implying it? It’s not as if Billy Corgan physically abducted Chloe Mendel. She willingly chose to become his partner. Either she’s wise enough and has enough agency to make decisions for herself, or she’s not. If it’s the latter, then you have to deal with the outcomes of that. I don’t buy that this is exclusively a “romantic relationship” problem. If the point is that 19-year olds are too ignorant to realize that a 44-year old man showing interest in them is “predatory,” surely that problem extends to other components of their agency.
Literally the person in this photo. They’ve been together for 13 years, right? I don’t know how you tell the difference in the beginning, but if you tell someone they can’t do it (which, you’re effectively doing by publicly shaming their relationship), then how many people are being deprived of a meaningful relationship. Why are you the arbiter of when someone has agency and when they don’t?
Dang, I actually thought you were capable of critical thought until this comment. This isn’t about validating my argument, it’s about invalidating the argument that disgust is a reasonable tool for determining morality of an action. That’s one of your points, as evidenced in the next line.
I guess I don’t understand your point at all then. You’re saying that even though Corgan is “disgusting and predatory,” his actions may well lead to happiness for him and the person he way “praying” on? On what planet does the word “pray” mean to make someone else happy? Oh no, I’m being prayed on by the compliment fairy! Keep it away!
I think you’re so focused on the older person here that you are failing to realize that you’re reducing the younger person to an automaton. The 19-year old is wise enough to make other life-changing choices: voting, taking out bank loans, making major purchases, choosing a career, choosing friends, deciding to take drugs, deciding to have an abortion, etc., but they’re not wise enough to decide whether or not it’s good for them to date someone who is older than them? I don’t think you can have your cake and eat it too.
You don’t need everything to be absolute to make a declarative criticism.
Again, you don’t need every relationship in a system of abuse to be abusive to criticize the system of abuse.
There were slaves whose parents were their masters, who in fact loved their masters and were loved by their masters. There were slaves who wanted to return to slavery after the civil war. Does that mean I can’t definitively claim slavery is bad?
Law does not dictate morality. Lots of things that are immoral are perfectly legal. Legal systems are not perfect.
Yes, and I would say that is a horrible and likely outcome for most people in that situation. And those with the most agency who participate in that relationship should be criticized.
When did I say it was exclusive to romantic relationships. What I said is that ranit relationship like this were more problematic because the potential for abuse is much greater. That being said, a older more powerful person abusing a younger colleague or friends is also bad and should be criticized.
Which is why I said how often… Again, you are excusing the majority for the sake of the outliers. Also, we really have no idea what this individual creations is like behind closed doors. Plenty of abusive relationships go on for decades.
Again… When did I say I was? I am just being critical of the guy in their 40s dating a teen.
Lol, the disgust is just one expression of the many criticism I have already laid out. It’s not that I am having my ethical construct dictated to me by social mores. I have articulated my reasoning, you just choose to ignore them.
You can have a happy slave, does that mean the slave owner isnt predatory or disgusting? Also it’s prey, not pray.
Because the older person has the power in the relationship. Keeping with the slavery comparison. Does a slave have the ability to choose not to be a slave? Yes, they could flee north, a lot of slaves did. However, it’s dangerous, they could fail to get away and be punished severely. Could a slave have a “good” master? Yes, lots of slaves were literal family members of their masters who were loved and loved their owners. Does that mean the concept of slavery is good? Does that mean all slaves had zero agency?