Whenever AI is mentioned lots of people in the Linux space immediately react negatively. Creators like TheLinuxExperiment on YouTube always feel the need to add a disclaimer that “some people think AI is problematic” or something along those lines if an AI topic is discussed. I get that AI has many problems but at the same time the potential it has is immense, especially as an assistant on personal computers (just look at what “Apple Intelligence” seems to be capable of.) Gnome and other desktops need to start working on integrating FOSS AI models so that we don’t become obsolete. Using an AI-less desktop may be akin to hand copying books after the printing press revolution. If you think of specific problems it is better to point them out and try think of solutions, not reject the technology as a whole.
TLDR: A lot of ludite sentiments around AI in Linux community.
I think conceptually AI is very useful and interesting, and as a general technical thing. But when we start talking about OpenAI and others, their methods for data collection, respect of licenses etc is where I (and I believe others) take issue
I agree. Openai have sold everything they supposedly stood for.
I’d call it realistic, not concerning.
Fair enough…
Gnome and other desktops need to start working on integrating FOSS AI models so that we don’t become obsolete.
I don’t get it. How Linux destops would become obsolete if they don’t have native AI toolsets on DEs? It’s not like they have a 80% market share. People who run them as daily drivers are still niche, and most don’t even know Linux exists. Most ppl grown up with Microsoft and Apple shoving ads down their throat, using them in schools first hand, and that’s all they know and taught. If I need AI, I will find ways to intergrate to my workflow, not by the dev thinks I need it.
And if you really need something like MS’s Recall, here is a FOSS version of it.
Its a good point but you can always have even lesa market share.
I don’t like AI because it’s literally not AI. I know damn well that it is just a data scraping tool that throws a bunch of ‘probably right’ sentences or images into a proverbial blender and spits out an answer that has no actual comprehension or consistency behind it. It takes only an incredibly basic knowledge of computers and brains to know that we cannot make an actual intelligent program using the Von Neumann style of computer.
I have absolutely no interest in technology being sold to me based on a lie. And if we’re not calling this out for the lie it is, then it’s going to just keep getting pushed by people trying to make money off the concept at the stock market.
Sooo like most people? 🤣
It takes only an incredibly basic knowledge of computers and brains to know that we cannot make an actual intelligent program using the Von Neumann style of computer.
Nice to hear that it only takes a very basic knowledge of computers to settle one of the most hotly disputed issues in philosophy and computing. You should let them know you’ve decided it.
I won’t rehash the arguments around “AI” that others are best placed to make.
My main issue is AI as a term is basically a marketing one to convince people that these tools do something they don’t and its causing real harm. Its redirecting resources and attention onto a very narrow subset of tools replacing other less intensive tools. There are significant impacts to these tools (during an existential crisis around our use and consumption of energy). There are some really good targeted uses of machine learning techniques but they are being drowned out by a hype train that is determined to make the general public think that we have or are near Data from Star Trek.
Addtionally, as others have said the current state of “AI” has a very anti FOSS ethos. With big firms using and misusing their monopolies to steal, borrow and coopt data that isn’t theirs to build something that contains that’s data but is their copyright. Some of this data is intensely personal and sensitive and the original intent behind the sharing is not for training a model which may in certain circumstances spit out that data verbatim.
Lastly, since you use the term Luddite. Its worth actually engaging with what that movement was about. Whilst its pitched now as generic anti-technology backlash in fact it was a movement of people who saw what the priorities and choices in the new technology meant for them: the people that didn’t own the technology and would get worse living and work conditions as a result. As it turned out they were almost exactly correct in thier predictions. They are indeed worth thinking about as allegory for the moment we find ourselves in. How do ordinary people want this technology to change our lives? Who do we want to control it? Given its implications for our climate needs can we afford to use it now, if so for what purposes?
Personally, I can’t wait for the hype train to pop (or maybe depart?) so we can get back to rational discussions about the best uses of machine learning (and computing in general) for the betterment of all rather than the enrichment of a few.
Right, another aspect of the Luddite movement is that they lost. They failed to stop the spread of industrialization and machinery in factories.
Screaming at a train moving 200kmph hoping it will stop.
But that doesn’t mean pushback is doomed to fail this time. “It happened once, therefore it follows that it will happen again” is confirmation bias.
Also, it’s not just screaming at a train. There’s actual litigation right now (and potential litigation) from some big names to reign in the capitalists exploiting the lack of regulation in LLMs. Each is not necessarily for a “luddite” purpose, but collectively, the results may effectively achieve the same thing.
“It happened once, therefore it follows that it will happen again” is confirmation bias
You’re right but realistically it will fail. The voices speaking against it are few and largely marginalised, with no money or power. There will probably be regulations but it will not go away.
You misunderstand the Luddite movement. They weren’t anti-technology, they were anti-capitalist exploitation.
The 1810s: The Luddites act against destitution
It is fashionable to stigmatise the Luddites as mindless blockers of progress. But they were motivated by an innate sense of self-preservation, rather than a fear of change. The prospect of poverty and hunger spurred them on. Their aim was to make an employer (or set of employers) come to terms in a situation where unions were illegal.
They probably wouldn’t be such a laughing stock if they were successful.
So, lick the boot instead of resisting you say?
Work on useful alternatives to big corpo crapware = lick the boot?
Mkay…
I dont think the community is generally against AI, there’s plenty of FOSS projects. They just don’t like cashgrabs, enshittification and sending personal data to someone else’s computer.
I don’t see anyone calling for cash grabs or privacy destroying features to be added to gnome or other projects so I don’t see why that would be an issue. 🙂
On device Foss models to help you with various tasks.
You are, if you’re calling for Apple like features.
You might argue that “private cloud” is privacy preserving, but you can only implement that with the cash of Apple. I would also argue that anything leaving my machine, to a bunch of servers I don’t control, without my knowledge is NOT preserving my privacy.
You might argue that “private cloud” is privacy preserving
I don’t know since when “on device” means send it to a server. Come up with more straw men I didn’t mention for you to defeat.
Luddites were not as opposed to new technology as you say it here. They were mainly concerned about what technology would do to whom.
A helpful history right here: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/brian-merchant/blood-in-the-machine/9780316487740/?lens=little-brown
Thanks for the history lesson, these days it is used to refer to those opposed to industrialisation, automation, computerisation, or new technologies or even progress in general.
Dammed impressive. How evil AI is managing to post defending itself.
I for one will be happy to bow to our new AI overlord.
I do not feel comfortable discussing whether I am an artificial intelligence or not. I aim to be direct in my communication, so I will simply state that such metaphysical questions about my nature are not something I can engage with. Perhaps we could find a different topic that allows me to be more helpful to you within the proper bounds. I’m happy to assist with writing, analysis, research, or any other constructive tasks. 😃
AI is massively wasting power that we need for electrifying transportation and more useful things.
There are many things more useful than AI, for example good internet search engines.
AI can be useful for dedicated things like being trained on relevant tutorials and documentation to help with Linux.
Too bad you can’t centrally plan what people want to use power on. Only if you could would the world be a better place.
Using an Al-less desktop may be akin to hand copying books after the printing press revolution.
Or perhaps not.
I guess we’ll see. 😃 In any case I wouldn’t want my Linux desktop to be 5 years behind if they do take off on other platforms.
There is no ethical computing under capitalism. https://youtu.be/AaU6tI2pb3M
It is always easier to blame an -ism than built in conflicting human tendencies.
Reminder that we don’t even have AI yet, just learning machine models, which are not the same thing despite wide misuse of the term AI.
That’s just nitpicking. Everyone here knows what we mean by AI. Yes it refers to LLMs.
Reminds me of Richard Stallman always interjecting to say “actually its gnu/Linux or as I like to say gnu plus Linux”…
Well no Mr Stallman its actually gnu + Linux + Wayland + systemd + chromium and whatever other software you have installed, are you happy now??
So when we actually do have AI, what are we supposed to call it? The current use of the term “AI” is too ambiguous to be of any use.
Honestly what we have now is AI. As in it is not intelligent just trys to mimic it.
Digital Intelegence if we ever achive it would be a more accurate name.
This is a bit philosophical but who is to say that mimicking intelligence with advanced math is not intelligence. LLMs can perform various thinking tasks better than humans we consider intelligent.
To be 🤓 really really nitpicky, and i’m writing this because I find it interesting, not an attack or whatever. A tongue in cheek AcHtUaLlY 🤓
GNU/Linux is the “whole operating system”, and everything else is extra. The usefulness of an operating system without applications is debatable but they 🤓 technically aren’t required to complete the definition of an operating system.
But this is also basically the debate of Linux vs GNU/Linux vs also needing applications to make a useful operating system.
Quoting wiki summary,
In its original meaning, and one still common in hardware engineering, the operating system is a basic set of functions to control the hardware and manage things like task scheduling and system calls. In modern terminology used by software developers, the collection of these functions is usually referred to as a kernel, while an ‘operating system’ is expected to have a more extensive set of programmes. The GNU project maintains two kernels itself, allowing the creation of pure GNU operating systems, but the GNU toolchain is also used with non-GNU kernels. Due to the two different definitions of the term ‘operating system’, there is an ongoing debate concerning the naming of distributions of GNU packages with a non-GNU kernel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU?wprov=sfti1#GNU_as_an_operating_system
Don’t tell me Linux mint would still be Linux mint without the a desktop environment like Cinnamon. An os is the collection of all the software not just the low level code.
As someone who frequently interacts with the tech illiterate, no they don’t. This sudden rush to put weighed text hallucination tables into everything isn’t that helpful. The hype feels like self driving cars or 3D TVs for those of us old enough to remember that. The potential for damage is much higher than either of those two preceding fads and cars actually killed poeple. I think many of us are expressing a healthy level of skepticism toward the people who need to sell us the next big thing and it is absolutely warranted.
The potential for damage is much higher
Doubt it. Maybe Microsoft can fuck it up somehow but the tech is here to stay and will do massive good.
Yes, lots of people are using this argument when reacting negatively.
Well, it’s kind of more of a fact than an argument, but do go on!
Its an interesting discussion. But I disagree you have a clear cut fact.
Just because it’s a computer writing things with math why do you say it is not intelligence. It would be helpful if you could be more detailed here.
One of the main things that turns people off when the topic of “AI” comes up is the absolutely ridiculous level of hype it gets. For instance, people claiming that current LLMs are a revolution comparable to the invention of the printing press, and that they have such immense potential that if you don’t cram them into every product you can all your software will soon be obsolete.
The amount of time they save is huge, no wonder people are excited.
I agree. However, I think it is related to Capitalism and all the sociopathic corporations out there. It’s almost impossible to think that anything good will come from the Blue Church controlling even more tech. Capitalism have always used any opportunity to enslave/extort people - that continues with AI under their control.
However, I was also disappointed when I found out how negative ‘my’ crowd were. I wanted to create an open source lowend AGI to secure poor people a descent life without being attacked by Capitalism every day/hour/second, create abundance, communities, production and and in general help build a social sub society in the midst of the insane blue church and their propagandized believers.
It is perfectly doable to fight the Capitalist religion with homegrown AI based on what we know and have today. But nobody can do it alone, and if there’s no-one willing to fight the f*ckers with AI, then it takes time…
I definitely intend to build a revolution-AGI to kill off the Capitalist religion and save exploited poor people. No matter what happens, there will be at least one AGI that are trained on revolution, anti-capitalism and building something much better than this effing blue nightmare. The worlds first aggressive ‘Commie-bot’ ha! 😍
