Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you’re clearly baiting with that title so if it’s alright with you let’s have some banter :P
If I say that
- the meme is on point
- material conditions in China are to some extent better than the US
- the US is definitely worse to its own people and the world
- I’m staunchly anti-capitalist
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
Am I a “lib”?
Kinda? What do you think socialism looks like, if not the PRC? What about the PRC makes it not “genuine worker control,” or more broadly, Marxism-Leninism not “genuine worker control?”
It’s mostly to do with how the workers aren’t in control of anything
They are, though. China is a democratic country, and public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy. Polling shows genuine democracy:
What would worker control have to look like for you to accept it?
The workers are absolutely in control. If you don’t know what worker’s congresses are, then you should do more studying, and less talking.
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
We’ve shown many times how the PRC is a worker-owned-and-controlled econoxy, and how the worker’s congresses function in action.
If you don’t consider any actually existing country that’s trying to build socialism “up to your standard”, then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren’t doing socialism correctly because they aren’t as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.
This thread is a testament to the years of china bad slop that white supremacist liberals have been eating.
Major props to all the patient comrades below trying to educate these stubborn klansmen.
Wait, I’m a white supremacist because I don’t want China - or anyone else - to manipulate Tibet or persecute Uygurs? I’m a Klansman because I lean to supporting Taiwan’s independence?
Do, like, MLs just hate everyone? Honestly, why are MLs so extremely hostile to people they don’t 100% agree with?
to manipulate Tibet or persecute Uygurs
The people selling this false narrative are white supremacists, not the Tibetan or Uyghur people.
I’m a Klansman because I lean to supporting Taiwan’s independence?
Taiwan is pretty much if the US confederates lost the civil war, then escaped to Cuba, killed all the people there, and set up a state. Read about what mass killings the Kuomintang did to the indigenous peoples of Taiwan when they escaped there.
I didn’t make my point clear. I don’t have any strong opinions on these matters I brought up, outside “genocide is bad” and other basic ethics. I’m admitting I don’t know much about them, not due to apathy but due to… just information fucking overload. It’s absurd to equate me with white supremacists just because I can’t keep up with everything going on in the world to exacting detail.
There is no genocide in Xinjiang nor, as the accusation used to go, in Tibet. Frivolously accusing an enemy of the west that it’s committing genocide, the crime of crimes, when those accusations mainly feed into narratives used to try to balkanize that enemy of the west does present a certain impression. I have no opinion on your character, but I would gently suggest that if you don’t have a strong opinion then it doesn’t make sense to go around making confident assertions, as you clearly did in the case of Xinjiang (because you surely know the argument being suggested by Cowbee and company is not that the PRC is committing genocide and that such a genocide would be good).
Your statement on Taiwan is perfectly consistent with how you characterize yourself, however we might disagree, because it was expressed as supporting a side in an issue where there is some consensus on what the sides represent, though obviously I and other communists will say that if you want an independent Taiwan, you I guess want a global revolution because in the current world there is no possibility for an independent Taiwan, like there is no possibility for an independent Tibet, because it will either be part of China or it will be controlled by the US.
It’s common for chauvanists to side with the US Empire’s claims about Tibet, Xinjiang, and Taiwan, as well as the framing of these issues. For westerners who utterly lack the background knowledge required to even begin untangling these subjects, to side with the world’s largest Empire against a rising socialist country it has every means and desire to lie about, this teeters into chauvanistic territory. I think anyone trying to get a realistic view of these subjects needs to also explore the Chinese perspective, as well as the global south.
Marxist-Leninists don’t hate everyone, we have a deep love for the working class and a hatred for oppression. The reason MLs can seem hostile is because we have to deal with the same arguments day in, day out, unceasingly. This manifests in frustration, lashing out, etc. It gets increasingly frustrating when Marxist heroes like Marx, Fred Hampton, Che, Frantz Fanon, Walter Rodney, Rosa Luxemburg, etc get passes from liberals due to their martyrdom or dying before being in a position of influence, while liberals follow the US Empire’s line on existing and practicing Marxists, and those who lived long enough to succeed.
