So I consider fraud and scamming to be a bit different, but maybe I’m just being pedantic or misusing the word.
Moreso what I meant was things like literally printing money isn’t possible outside of how the coin functions (assuming no bugs lol) and the global supply and such are known values that can be backed up.
Compare that to the opaqueness of the US banking system where things like bank runs can and do happen because money is essentially duplicated via things like loans backed only by promises rather then literally tied into the functionality of the currency itself.
On the bank point, there’s no reason an authority of sorts couldn’t do the same thing with crypto, they had to take the hit for the lost money as it was already gone, just like what can happen with crypto. I’m sorry your nephew lost his funds due to malware, however I’d argue they likely didn’t take proper protections. For example we know things like card skimmers exist and you have to take actions to prevent those things from impacting you as well.
On your last point, hopefully I explained a bit more why, to me, it does relate to fraud, but yes it doesn’t have anything to do with malware, nor did I claim it did.
But going back to the malware point, that’s no different from getting mugged and losing your life savings because you kept all your cash on you. It sucks to get mugged but it’s “common sense” not to carry all of your cash on you at a time, while it’s not yet common sense for people who hardly understand the idea of crypto as to how they can/should secure their keys or distribute across multiple wallets potentially to guard against that.
. For example we know things like card skimmers exist and you have to take actions to prevent those things from impacting you as well.
If your card is stolen, you are still safe. The credit card company reverses the charges.
US banking system where things like bank runs can and do happen
That’s a horrible example because that’s exactly the same as what happens with crypto on a daily basis. When a crypto is dumped, it’s value plummets leaving bag holders.
With banks your money is insured up to $250,000.
Global monetary supply isn’t fraud.
your life savings because you kept all your cash on you
Which is why I didn’t say cash. I said credit card. If you are mugged and your credit card is stolen, you call the credit card company, report the theft, and you lose nothing. They don’t hold you responsible for the list money.
Your dad’s bank account was hacked and his money was returned by the bank TWICE. That’s the opposite of fraud.
If your card is stolen, you are still safe. The credit card company reverses the charges.
You must know that’s not actually how it works, often the funds can’t be pulled back like that and instead the bank takes the hit. That is something that could be done with crypto as well.
That’s a horrible example because that’s exactly the same as what happens with crypto on a daily basis. When a crypto is dumped, it’s value plummets leaving bag holders.
That’s not what a bank run is, that’s just a rug pull, and yes I agree there are a lot of scam coins that people fall for, that’s not an indictment of the idea of crypto as a whole.
A bank run is when the bank does not literally have the money owed to depositors because they lend it out. (Or other means) and if too many attempt to withdraw at once they literally can not give people their money.
That’s a completely different situation and it concerns me you think they’re the same.
With banks your money is insured up to $250,000.
That’s not a feature of the currency itself, it’s a forced regulation due to bad behvior of the industry prior where people lost money. Again this could be done with a cryptocurrency as well with proper regulations in place.
Global monetary supply isn’t fraud.
I never claimed it was, I said it was opaque. We can’t know how many dollars are actually printed/in circulation compared to how much total is being “held” in banks.
Which is why I didn’t say cash. I said credit card. If you are mugged and your credit card is stolen, you call the credit card company, report the theft, and you lose nothing. They don’t hold you responsible for the list money.
I said cash, and have continued to reference cash, going back to the original BTC whitepaper the point has always been cash analogue with the ability to do more due to it being digital. It can’t completely replace regulation and consumer protection just like cash couldn’t without external enforcement.
Your dad’s bank account was hacked and his money was returned by the bank TWICE. That’s the opposite of fraud.
He was defrauded by the people who stole the money, but he wasn’t scammed (going back to my previous point that these two words do not mean the same thing). My point was that the bank didn’t “get the money back” they made him whole by taking the hit. Again that’s not a feature of credit cards or currency, it’s an external institution and regulation above them to enforce that. Again something I think should be done with crypto as well.
Your edit isn’t fraud, it’s scamming lol, there’s articles showing the people who paid in the most got things from Trump, quid pro quo basically and the rubes who bought in for less thinking dear leader wouldn’t rugpull them.
There seems to be a fundamental disconnect here.
The things you cite as positives for existing credit card/banking institutions did not magically appear out of thin air, nor did they start that way.
It takes time, regulations and knowledge for those things to be put in place, I’m all for that.
I also think shitcoins are scams, just like midnight infomercial products are mostly scams. Its not a hard concept to understand that commerce itself isn’t a scam but some do fake commerce to scam or defraud people. The same is true for crypto, projects like BTC (I could go on a whole tangent about how it’s been coopted and ruined but I won’t) and ETH had actual usecases whereas doge/Litecoin/whatevercoin did not.
That is exactly how it works. A credit card isn’t a debit card. I have had my card number stolen. I saw weird charges on my card, called my credit card company and they reversed those charges immediately. No arguing was necessary because credit card companies work for you. Again this is a credit card, not a bank debit card.
That is something that could be done with crypto as well.
It can’t be done with crypto because you are transferring direct. You would need someone in between in which case you have reinvented banking.
Your edit isn’t fraud, it’s scamming lol
I’m getting the impression you aren’t in the US or British and don’t speak English natively. This could be why we are having problems communicating.
Ok do you understand how that actually works for the bank? I’m not questioning the end user impact lmao, I’m telling you what happens to the bank itself, please explain to me how if someone uses your stolen card to get cash before the fraud is noticed the bank magically gets that cash bank from the one who stole it.
The answer is, they don’t, they have insurance and such and make you whole that way.
It can’t be done with crypto because you are transferring direct. You would need someone in between in which case you have reinvented banking.
You don’t actually, there could be a fund paid for via taxes or similar to aide people who’ve been scammed/defrauded while the criminal activity is investigated and punished by authorities, just like right now with traditional currencies.
I’m getting the impression you aren’t in the US or British and don’t speak English natively.
I’m from Texas, I am a licensed financial professional lmao. There is literally a difference in practice between a scam and fraud.
Fraud is an umbrella term, scams fall inside it. So I’m being pedantic and pointing out the differences in behavior between a generic fraud (such as your identity stolen or using your card pretending to be you in other examples) and scamming (things like ICO rugpulls, midnight infomercial jewelry, I’d argue “mystics” and megachurches)
Edit: To your point tho, it does still fall into the fraud category, but it helps to be more clear about what specific bad behaviors are being done to properly identify potential solutions IMO.
Their internal mechanisms and work with police work is irrelevant to me as a consumer. It is therefore irrelevant for you to bring it up.
You are arguing that a new car warranty doesn’t exist because a dealership has to pay a mechanic to fix the defective car they sold. You are ridiculous.
I’m from Texas, I am a licensed financial professional
Then you god damn know the actual definition of fraud not your silly redefinition.
yes it’s actually important to understand how money moves
I claimed credit cards protect consumers. You countered with "For example we know things like card skimmers " Once I explained that consumers are still protected you tried to make it about the process of a credit card company recovering their money which has fuck all to do with consumer protection. You invented a personal definition for fraud not because you don’t speak English but because your claim that crypto protects against fraud was bad.
The fact that you can still have your money stolen with a credit card easily was my point. You then didn’t care about the actual process to recover when that occurs because “all that matters is the consumer experience” but we’re literally talking about a potential currency alternative so the process/method is extremely relevant.
I didn’t invent a personal definition of fraud, I tried to clarify when and why it is helpful to use the more specific term scamming as opposed to generalized fraud, because again we’re discussing the problems in crypto currency that need to be addressed in order to replace the fraud protections that have been developed over time through the banking system.
I’m arguing in good faith, you simply don’t care to see my points and disregard anything you don’t like lmfao.
If you get scammed into buying something that isn’t as advertised, the bank isn’t going to refund you automatically, it becomes a legal situation. If you have been defrauded and had your card information stolen and used for ourchases you didn’t make, then the bank will do something about it.
Again this is why I’m being specific about the two terms. People buying into garbage altcoins are being scammed, they’re not being literally defrauded in the same way. I don’t see how you could disagree with that assessment.
Edit: Let’s talk NFTs, I would say people were scammed into buying them for crazy inflated prices, but that’s not legally fraud because they did get what they paid for, they just believed hype or wanted to try and make a quick buck or whatever. They would not likely get their money back even if they paid for the NFT with their credit card because it’s not actual fraud.
So I consider fraud and scamming to be a bit different, but maybe I’m just being pedantic or misusing the word.
Moreso what I meant was things like literally printing money isn’t possible outside of how the coin functions (assuming no bugs lol) and the global supply and such are known values that can be backed up.
Compare that to the opaqueness of the US banking system where things like bank runs can and do happen because money is essentially duplicated via things like loans backed only by promises rather then literally tied into the functionality of the currency itself.
On the bank point, there’s no reason an authority of sorts couldn’t do the same thing with crypto, they had to take the hit for the lost money as it was already gone, just like what can happen with crypto. I’m sorry your nephew lost his funds due to malware, however I’d argue they likely didn’t take proper protections. For example we know things like card skimmers exist and you have to take actions to prevent those things from impacting you as well.
On your last point, hopefully I explained a bit more why, to me, it does relate to fraud, but yes it doesn’t have anything to do with malware, nor did I claim it did.
But going back to the malware point, that’s no different from getting mugged and losing your life savings because you kept all your cash on you. It sucks to get mugged but it’s “common sense” not to carry all of your cash on you at a time, while it’s not yet common sense for people who hardly understand the idea of crypto as to how they can/should secure their keys or distribute across multiple wallets potentially to guard against that.
If your card is stolen, you are still safe. The credit card company reverses the charges.
That’s a horrible example because that’s exactly the same as what happens with crypto on a daily basis. When a crypto is dumped, it’s value plummets leaving bag holders.
With banks your money is insured up to $250,000.
Global monetary supply isn’t fraud.
Which is why I didn’t say cash. I said credit card. If you are mugged and your credit card is stolen, you call the credit card company, report the theft, and you lose nothing. They don’t hold you responsible for the list money.
Your dad’s bank account was hacked and his money was returned by the bank TWICE. That’s the opposite of fraud.
Crypto cannot do that.
Edit: this is fraud:
https://futurism.com/future-society/trump-meme-coin-disaster
You must know that’s not actually how it works, often the funds can’t be pulled back like that and instead the bank takes the hit. That is something that could be done with crypto as well.
That’s not what a bank run is, that’s just a rug pull, and yes I agree there are a lot of scam coins that people fall for, that’s not an indictment of the idea of crypto as a whole.
A bank run is when the bank does not literally have the money owed to depositors because they lend it out. (Or other means) and if too many attempt to withdraw at once they literally can not give people their money.
That’s a completely different situation and it concerns me you think they’re the same.
That’s not a feature of the currency itself, it’s a forced regulation due to bad behvior of the industry prior where people lost money. Again this could be done with a cryptocurrency as well with proper regulations in place.
I never claimed it was, I said it was opaque. We can’t know how many dollars are actually printed/in circulation compared to how much total is being “held” in banks.
I said cash, and have continued to reference cash, going back to the original BTC whitepaper the point has always been cash analogue with the ability to do more due to it being digital. It can’t completely replace regulation and consumer protection just like cash couldn’t without external enforcement.
He was defrauded by the people who stole the money, but he wasn’t scammed (going back to my previous point that these two words do not mean the same thing). My point was that the bank didn’t “get the money back” they made him whole by taking the hit. Again that’s not a feature of credit cards or currency, it’s an external institution and regulation above them to enforce that. Again something I think should be done with crypto as well.
Your edit isn’t fraud, it’s scamming lol, there’s articles showing the people who paid in the most got things from Trump, quid pro quo basically and the rubes who bought in for less thinking dear leader wouldn’t rugpull them.
There seems to be a fundamental disconnect here.
The things you cite as positives for existing credit card/banking institutions did not magically appear out of thin air, nor did they start that way.
It takes time, regulations and knowledge for those things to be put in place, I’m all for that.
I also think shitcoins are scams, just like midnight infomercial products are mostly scams. Its not a hard concept to understand that commerce itself isn’t a scam but some do fake commerce to scam or defraud people. The same is true for crypto, projects like BTC (I could go on a whole tangent about how it’s been coopted and ruined but I won’t) and ETH had actual usecases whereas doge/Litecoin/whatevercoin did not.
That is exactly how it works. A credit card isn’t a debit card. I have had my card number stolen. I saw weird charges on my card, called my credit card company and they reversed those charges immediately. No arguing was necessary because credit card companies work for you. Again this is a credit card, not a bank debit card.
It can’t be done with crypto because you are transferring direct. You would need someone in between in which case you have reinvented banking.
I’m getting the impression you aren’t in the US or British and don’t speak English natively. This could be why we are having problems communicating.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud
Ok do you understand how that actually works for the bank? I’m not questioning the end user impact lmao, I’m telling you what happens to the bank itself, please explain to me how if someone uses your stolen card to get cash before the fraud is noticed the bank magically gets that cash bank from the one who stole it.
The answer is, they don’t, they have insurance and such and make you whole that way.
You don’t actually, there could be a fund paid for via taxes or similar to aide people who’ve been scammed/defrauded while the criminal activity is investigated and punished by authorities, just like right now with traditional currencies.
I’m from Texas, I am a licensed financial professional lmao. There is literally a difference in practice between a scam and fraud.
Fraud is an umbrella term, scams fall inside it. So I’m being pedantic and pointing out the differences in behavior between a generic fraud (such as your identity stolen or using your card pretending to be you in other examples) and scamming (things like ICO rugpulls, midnight infomercial jewelry, I’d argue “mystics” and megachurches)
Edit: To your point tho, it does still fall into the fraud category, but it helps to be more clear about what specific bad behaviors are being done to properly identify potential solutions IMO.
Their internal mechanisms and work with police work is irrelevant to me as a consumer. It is therefore irrelevant for you to bring it up.
You are arguing that a new car warranty doesn’t exist because a dealership has to pay a mechanic to fix the defective car they sold. You are ridiculous.
Then you god damn know the actual definition of fraud not your silly redefinition.
Gtfo.
Lol k, yes it’s actually important to understand how money moves around when talking about a potential replacement.
I claimed credit cards protect consumers. You countered with "For example we know things like card skimmers " Once I explained that consumers are still protected you tried to make it about the process of a credit card company recovering their money which has fuck all to do with consumer protection. You invented a personal definition for fraud not because you don’t speak English but because your claim that crypto protects against fraud was bad.
You are not arguing in good faith.
The fact that you can still have your money stolen with a credit card easily was my point. You then didn’t care about the actual process to recover when that occurs because “all that matters is the consumer experience” but we’re literally talking about a potential currency alternative so the process/method is extremely relevant.
I didn’t invent a personal definition of fraud, I tried to clarify when and why it is helpful to use the more specific term scamming as opposed to generalized fraud, because again we’re discussing the problems in crypto currency that need to be addressed in order to replace the fraud protections that have been developed over time through the banking system.
I’m arguing in good faith, you simply don’t care to see my points and disregard anything you don’t like lmfao.
If you get scammed into buying something that isn’t as advertised, the bank isn’t going to refund you automatically, it becomes a legal situation. If you have been defrauded and had your card information stolen and used for ourchases you didn’t make, then the bank will do something about it.
Again this is why I’m being specific about the two terms. People buying into garbage altcoins are being scammed, they’re not being literally defrauded in the same way. I don’t see how you could disagree with that assessment.
Edit: Let’s talk NFTs, I would say people were scammed into buying them for crazy inflated prices, but that’s not legally fraud because they did get what they paid for, they just believed hype or wanted to try and make a quick buck or whatever. They would not likely get their money back even if they paid for the NFT with their credit card because it’s not actual fraud.
Can we at least agree on that?