This is nothing new. Liberals have always done this throughout history. They put all the blame on individuals to cover up the root cause of these constantly reoccuring wars and genocides.
Netanyahu isn’t the problem.
Israel is. The West is. Imperialism is. Capitalism is.
By: @commie______central
I don’t see that because I didn’t say any of that. Moreover, I never denied that if Russia had larger finance capital that it would likely develop in an imperialist direction. The important part is that that is currently a fantasy, and not actual reality. I do oppose actions that are fundamentally unjust, that’s why I suppose the US empire and NATO encirclement of countries that provokes needless wars and bloodshed for western imperialist profit.
If I’m honest, it seems to me that you believe an evil in the context of a “bigger” evil is actually good.
I can’t accept that. Russia’s imperialism is evil, just like US imperialism is evil. I won’t defend or accept either.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this.
I don’t believe analyzing the world through an idealist framing of “good” vs. “evil” is particularly effective. Russia’s entry into the Ukrainian Civil War was prompted by NATO repeatedly violating Russia’s sovereignty, as well as Kiev committing ethnic repressions against the separatists in the Donbass region, which circles back to the Euromaidan coup backed by the west, which circles back to imperialism as a material system during the era of monopoly finance capital. The US-led imperialist order is what caused the invasion in the first place, and ending this is what’s most important for the entire working class.
I think we’re both going to have to agree that we believe different propaganda.
You’re going to dismiss anything I post as “Western” fiction, and I’m going to dismiss anything you post as Russian misinformation.
Can you explain what I have described as “western fiction,” and what I have said that is “Russian disinformation?” Surely you can point to one instance of either of these if that’s your conclusion.
As you mentioned Donbass, I’ll make three arguments with some evidence:
https://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2019/04/12/7211983/
https://www.husj.harvard.edu/articles/language-status-and-state-loyalty-in-ukraine
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/04/23/10-years-later-russian-volunteer-fighters-recall-fueling-the-war-in-donbas-a84917
Regarding claim 1, I both fail to see the relevance of the point nor do I think linking a Ukrainian-state affiliated source drawing on a poll based in Kiev is particularly compelling evidence. Even if the numbers were true and properly sourced, this does not mean that secession was somehow inorganic, and it further does not mean that after the beginning of the Ukrainian Civil War, that these numbers did not dramatically change in favor of secession.
Regarding claim 2, this again does not logically follow. You appear to be erasing Russian as an ethnicity, and instead see this as a problem of language, and not ethnicity. Ethnic Russians form a minority of Eastern Ukraine, despite Russian being more widely spoken even among ethnic Ukrainians. The fact that the fascist forces that had taken over Kiev were popularly and organically opposed by primarily ethnic Russians does not mean Russia forced them into doing so:
As far as Russian volunteers are concerned, nobody is denying that they exist. Rather, what’s important is that it has been the Banderites in Kiev that overthrew the democratically elected president at the support of NATO, which threw the entire country into crisis. This sparked the Ukrainian Civil War, which Russia entered after Kiev escalated the massacres of civilians and accelerated buildup of forces along Russia’s border, with missiles pointed directly at Moscow.
In all of this, there are two things you have not accounted for:
The primacy of NATO and western imperialism in provoking the war
The right of self-determination for the Donbass region, which after a decade of war with Kiev wishes to be integrated into Russia.
Well I guess they didn’t get a chance to conduct any further polls thanks to Russian bombs and bullets. But it certainly shows that before Russia started murdering people, there wasn’t support for secession among Russian speakers.
And now I’ll just point back at my previous comment. I guess I was right, there is no evidence I can post that will successfully challenge your belief. Because if it doesn’t say what you want it to say, it’s not an acceptable source.
And you know what, at least I gave you the benefit of the doubt and took the effort to engage you with real sources and evidence. You couldn’t even give me the same courtesy.
I want to remain on speaking terms because I don’t believe you are acting in bad faith but I need a break from this thread so I’m going to bounce out. Wishing you a good day regardless.
There was widespread support for secession, unless you think 41% is trivial? 41% is plenty for separatists to spark a movement, and once this movement is on the ground consciousness shifts to meet the new material conditions.
As for the point on the poll being from Kiev, I never said they were invalid, and specifically made my points on the assumption that they were valid, because I knew you would claim I was dismissing it. It’s not that the source doesn’t say what I want it to say, it’s that the fact that this was done by Kiev more than lends credibility to the presentation of the numbers being biased! Again, though, I assumed the numbers were correct for my argument!
I gave you more than plenty courtesy, that’s why I assumed each and every one of your sources was correct for my arguments. Dismissing that fact is frustrating because I went to further lengths than necessary to tackle your points head-on.
This is always how it ends with the imperialist argument, trying to frame it as not imperialist and then back pedaling to implying that imperialism is good because actually the other guys are imperialist by MY definition of what imperialism is, not by Lenin’s “narrow” (lol) definition.
“We just believe different propaganda” doesn’t make any sense, you willingly admit you believe imperialist propaganda and that you’ll just dismiss anything that’s not western as “Russian disinformation”. What would even be the point in trying to reach out? you just hit a wall when it comes to history and modern current events, then you just straight up admit “well I won’t believe what you tell me so I’ll just keep on telling others the same thing that’s been debunked a million times”
Pathetic. Truly.
Did that comment make you feel good? How sad.
What are you talking about?
I never back pedaled. I believe the Russian invasion of Ukraine is imperialism. It fits the definition, which I will repeat.
And to clarify regarding Lenin, I believe he wrote that wars of imperialism are inevitable under capitalism, not that they are exclusive to capitalist countries. I’m sure you’re up to date on your theory, so please correct me if I’m wrong.
You’re making my point for me.
What Russian lie about the war do you think you can regurgitate that I haven’t heard already?
What evidence of Russian imperialism can I present to you that you don’t already consider “debunked a million times”.
I acknowledge that I am entrenched. I acknowledge that I have bias based on personal experience. That acknowledgement actually gives me the ability to reconsider my position if I was presented with good enough evidence.
If you don’t acknowledge what prevents you from changing your opinion, you will never know how to change it.
I don’t think you acknowledge your own entrenchment, I think you simply believe you are right. With that belief, how will you ever accept something that tells you that you’re wrong?
Yes it did make me feel good. I’m not going to bother replying to you when you’re deflecting every single thing someone says to you.
The problem here is that you’re misrepresenting my opinion, not that I have to “accept I’m entrenched”. Liberals have been using that word so much lately I wonder which slop outlet is using it.
Cowbee and another user, eldavi, layed it out clearly for you way better than I could have, with solid and western sources to satisfy you. What happened to agreeing that your propaganda is better than mine?
You’ve already openly stated that you will reject all evidence as “Russian lies”
“Actually me openly stating that I will reject any disagreement out of hand names me more right”
it’s not western fiction, the united states government itself has effectively already admitted lying about many things and ukraine will be the next one.
united states congress voted to ban weapons shipments to ukraine in 2018 because they were afraid that the nazi elements in ukraine would provoke a conflict w russia – this is a fact in writing available to the public for viewing – and you should be asking yourself why/how you believe the propaganda anyways.
And the Kremlin is a famously honest place.
Then why can’t I find it?
I always do, can you say the same?
you’re right to hold both the kremlin and the white house with equal amounts of distrust.
the part you’re missing that the kremlin’s propaganda is transparent whereas the white house’s propaganda is laundered through ngo’s to make it harder detect – that fact that you have to learn this the hard way using things like the freedom of information act goes to prove that everyone here is putting more effort into it than you are to educate yourself.
YES!!! this is the first step to understanding how american propaganda works! ask yourself why it’s so hard to access this public record and you’ll discover that it’s also a pain in the ass to find other public records regarding north korea, china, cuba, etc.
you have to be an american citizen to access it directly or you can use the breadcrumbs from public articles like this one: https://thehill.com/opinion/international/381873-when-we-cant-agree-to-fight-against-neo-nazis-weve-reached-a-new-low/amp/#top#1 to find out who sponsored it and then you can start your search from there, but i would recommend the freedom of information act first because it’ll do more to give you an understand of how american propaganda works.
I’m confused. You claimed that weapon shipments to Ukraine were banned, but the evidence you posted says that they were approved with a provision that they couldn’t be supplied to Azov. Which is fair.
I’d also like to point out that you seem to imply that Russia doesn’t have its own fair share of Nazi’s. Are we going to ignore the existence of Wagner?
Maybe the only silver lining of this war is that many Nazi’s on both sides have been killed.
as i said: i shared a breadcrumb w you – it not supporting evidence. if you pursue this further you will see how this article was the first stage of an american propaganda narrative as well as obtain actual supporting evidence; now you have the name of the bill’s sponsor so you have the necessary information to educate yourself better.
and the neo-nazis only matter if you plan to use them to provoke war – which ukraine did.
the epstein class likes neo-nazis – that’s why there are so many of them everywhere where the epstein class is in charge; including russia and ukraine.
“I assume everyone else is just as dishonest as me”